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LoneStar Bass  |  Fishing  |  Bass Fishing  |  Topic: ....Tournaments and Dead Fish... « previous next »
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Carl Wengenroth
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« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2010, 07:43:41 pm »
Very true Eric. We had a team here not long ago that VIDOETAPED on their cell phone the release of what looked to me a 5 lb. bass that by watching was very sick. But, it was also very alive and swam off on the surface on it's own power. They didn't know how to fizz or any procedures so instead of bringing it in they just let it go. But at least they had the where with all to recognize a troubled fish and did not want it to die in their minds so they released it and caught another one. They knew about the polygraph and so took the footage. There was and is nothing can be done in that situation. Like you said no laws were broken or rules. But they didn't want to get busted if they had to take  a polygraph test. But I can also say that I know of an angler who took a polygraph and failed it due to dumping a dead one overboard. Of'course, if the tourney your in doesn't have that, nobody will ever know except that angler or if someone sees it and tapes it on camera as evidence. Otherwise, oh well. But I think the movement like stated above toward the goal has profoundly improved like stated even two years ago. I like it. Ethics are improving and kudos to those that are doing it.
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Carl Wengenroth
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Joe Schroeder
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« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2010, 07:49:18 am »
This will probabley go way against the grain here and may be a little off topic, but it deals with the dead fish issue when it occurs most frequently, in the summertime.  If I was head of the TPWD or whoever makes the rules, summertime tournaments (perhaps from mid June to mid September)would be limited  to paper tournaments and let the tournament trails and clubs adjust accordingly.  The more competitive ones would probably change schedules around the summer ban, the less competitive ones and local clubs would probably go the paper route, using draw tournaments, cameras, etc., to ensure honesty.  Just an opinion.
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Bryan Welborn
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« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2010, 10:06:17 am »
If TPWD or anyone made rules saying that there has to be paper tournaments, I'll sell my boat and I'll never fish for bass again.  I don't like paper tournaments that much.
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Eric Gandy
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« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2010, 03:39:38 pm »
I'm not cazy about the paper tournament idea. I believe proper fish care is the ticket.  I think that with the growing popularity of livewell management, we are going to see a big decrease of dead fish at weighin.  And back to the original topic, a penalty is enough. By not allowing dead fish at weighin, you can take someone out of the game even if they do everything right. Killing someones chance to win because of a tounge hook foes not seem right to me. 
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Tom Cornelius
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« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2010, 05:49:04 pm »
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paper tournaments

That would for sure take me out of the game
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David Weber
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« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2010, 09:42:20 am »
 Here is what I have concluded after all the post I have read. I will rethink my position on dead fish. I can see where someone may have a tongue hooked, deep gullet, knicked a gill or a condition that may not be related to the care after catch. I think a .5# penalty is fine, but I also like the thought of the second dead fish to double the penalty to make sure the livewells are managed and think that would relly help.

I dont know what the cost of needles is or stocking Livewell additives, but either give them away or offer them for sale at registrations or launch to remind everyone to consider fish care to increase survival. I see a lot of shet given away at tournaments but rarely see anything related to fish care. I wont lay it all on the TD's to try make everyone responsible as that is not reasonable, and they usually have plenty on their plate, but TD's could push those companies to better assist in promoting healthy release by more actively exposing proven products to anglers and getting them all comfortable using it regularly. I mean really, who has ever given away a fish care kit with a bottle of livewell additive, a couple of needles, some hydrogen peroxide and a simple printout of basic fish care guidelines in a little kit...I would sure be on that before a pack of worms or a hat.

Seems like most everyone here is on similar page for doing what we can to keep them alive. There are alot of different theories of how to get that result, just so long as we keep it in our minds to watch the fishes.

As far as the paper tourneys....uuuuuuh, thanks, but no.
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Carl Wengenroth
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« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2010, 12:40:27 pm »
We hand them out at registration and discuss it with every participant that is new to our tournament. Everyone else has the paperwork and syringe/needle. Cost on that is minimal (damn cheap at feed stores) and the people at sure-life do sponsor some events.
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Carl Wengenroth
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Charley David
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« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2010, 02:47:52 pm »
I still think even if they are weighed there is no reason to announce dead fish @ public weighins. It just does not do anyone any good. I also think if a fish is struggling it needs to be taken home not let loose to die. We need to reeducate folks that it is not a sin to eat a fish now & again especially if it is going to go to waste.
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Derick Kuyrkendall
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« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2010, 04:05:59 pm »
Thank you Charlie, I thought I was the only one that got it.
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Tom Cornelius
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« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2010, 08:28:38 am »
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there is no reason to announce dead fish @ public weighins
Agreed

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if a fish is struggling it needs to be taken home
Sounds yummy
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Ryan Autery
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« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2010, 10:01:35 pm »
Now we should use the results from the Elite Series post season tournament today as an example.  Why should Aaron Martens get 2nd for this tournament?  Can anyone give a definative answer as to what he should have done to keep his fish alive?  Is it really his fault that his fish died, so much so that Russ Lane should be awarded 1st place even though he clearly wasn't the best fisherman?  Next, why should BASS and Aaron Martens have kept this whole thing hush hush and not told anyone?
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Joey Deans
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« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2010, 12:20:49 pm »
Quote from: Ryan Autery on July 25, 2010, 10:01:35 pm
Now we should use the results from the Elite Series post season tournament today as an example.  Why should Aaron Martens get 2nd for this tournament?  Can anyone give a definative answer as to what he should have done to keep his fish alive?  Is it really his fault that his fish died, so much so that Russ Lane should be awarded 1st place even though he clearly wasn't the best fisherman?  Next, why should BASS and Aaron Martens have kept this whole thing hush hush and not told anyone?

Aaron Martens was the only one with numbers of dead fish.  So who's fault was it again?  Sounds like Aarons fault..... 
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Mark Jones
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« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2010, 12:25:17 pm »
Part #1 in this deal is to find them.  Part #2 is to catch them.  Part #3 is to keep them alive.  It's like a pro football team, you've got to be good at all three phases of the game to be really good.

Keeping them alive is part of it. 
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Stephen Mills
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« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2010, 01:12:49 pm »
I can see both sides to the arguement. BUT

I can't think of another single rule in sports where participants are required to follow a rule in which they do not have a 100% controle of the out come, yet will be penatilized reguardless of the circumstances of how the rule was broken. 
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Charley David
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« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2010, 01:34:53 pm »
Same rules apply to all & keeping fish alive is part of those rules. I do not believe they should hide the dead fish I just do not think it needs to be advertised unless it is shown in a positive light. For example the dead fish were donated to a homeless shelter or something along those lines.
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Derick Kuyrkendall
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« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2010, 01:47:14 pm »
Quote from: Stephen Mills on July 26, 2010, 01:12:49 pm
I can see both sides to the arguement. BUT

I can't think of another single rule in sports where participants are required to follow a rule in which they do not have a 100% controle of the out come, yet will be penatilized reguardless of the circumstances of how the rule was broken. 

Stephen how many other sports do you know that involve a live animal?
The rule is there so we try and conserve a resource.  Without that rule and enough people not caring about keeping them alive, could destroy the population of our lakes fast.  The rule forces people to care plain and simple. If you don't want to care for your fish your penalized. That is truely the only penalty bass tournaments have unlike other sports that have multiple penalties.   
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Stephen Mills
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« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2010, 02:21:07 pm »
I'm not saying I don't agree with the rule. Simpily staying there is no right way to police it. It's not right for the results of a tournament to be altered by dead fish nor is it right for 300 dead fish to be weighed in. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
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Stephen Mills
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« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2010, 02:25:33 pm »
You have to admit though that having a rule enforsced by penalty that the contestent can't always controle is flawed.

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Derick Kuyrkendall
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« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2010, 02:26:42 pm »
It's no different than saying a football team would have won the game if it weren't for stupid penalties. A team can beat another up and down the field and still lose. No different here either.  
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Derick Kuyrkendall
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« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2010, 02:28:20 pm »
He may not be able to control a fish but how many dead fish did Martin have? 
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Stephen Mills
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« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2010, 02:36:04 pm »
Lol we will have to agree to dis agree.
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Derick Kuyrkendall
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« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2010, 02:46:09 pm »
Agreed
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Carl Wengenroth
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« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2010, 08:03:00 pm »
Quote from: Derick Kuyrkendall on July 19, 2010, 04:05:59 pm
Thank you Charlie, I thought I was the only one that got it.
[/quote


Only one way I can explain it better. Go be a tournament director. Not the small time stuff we fish, but the big , media circus events. Elite Series, FLW Tour. The one's that outdoor writers, tv crews etc. follow religously. Then have what happened at Falcon and the Potomac happen to you with your organization professing catch and release. And hide them and get caught, floating up later or found in multiple ice chests and have the media shitstorm from the bunnyhuggers to the forum junkies tear you a new one. Threaten you, chastise you and hound you beyond belief with any accusation they can dream up (some make a pretty good living dreaming this shit up). Then maybe you will know what I am talking about. And as far as announcing, there is nothing wrong with saying , for example, 4 alive - 1 dead . The people are going to see the weight on the scale and remember what it was when they read the results on paper, even if you don't say anything. There is where the hiding accusations come. And THERE is where you can educate the public that in the act of fishing itself, tournament or not, it happens. It gets them off your back (except for the bunnyhuggers) and helps them understand our hobby. It also helps the public understand that you are conservation minded, instead of in it just to make money. Puts your organization in a whole different light. And it is starting to trickle down to the small stuff , as some organizations have found out recently. That is why I say what I do. To help people so they can have their trails and club and open tournaments. I am full of it. Maybe so, until it rains on another tournament.
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Carl Wengenroth
National Conservation Director - International Federation of Black Bass Anglers
 The Anglers Lodge/Tackle Shop
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Ron Rogers
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« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2010, 10:15:07 am »
This probably wont be the most popular response as some seem to have a sort of worship going on for the largemouth, but why not just take the dead ones with you and eat them? They are quit tasty when dropped in hot oil, I know the thought is foreign, but give it a try.   
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David Rush
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« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2010, 10:32:42 am »
I know TD's already have enough to deal with but, an electric knife or fillet knife on hand might prevent wasting of fish. It could be a requirement if you have a dead or highly stressed fish to clean it.  It could be be an incentive if you had a one pound penalty to reduce it to a half pound if you clean the fish right there. Just a thought....
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Carl Wengenroth
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« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2010, 05:29:15 pm »
They do get taken away and eaten. Every tournament TD has to (or the angler who brings it in takes it home) otherwise you are breaking the law and wasting a state wildlife resource. The fine isn't cheap. It's not about worshiping, it is doing what you say you are gonna do. Catch and Release tournament, of which here at Amistad you have to state what kind of tournament it is before you get a permit, then do a catch and release tournament and do the best you can. As some have found the hard way, the court system doesn't care how good they taste . If it is a take it all home, then do it. Nobody is denying anyone taking fish home. It's about what you say your gonna do, and some of the organizations professing how well they do it, then ya better be on the ball and not half ass it is what we are saying. And by educating the public of what why, when , and where of the act of fishing you help eliminate problems. I have no problem eating fish of any kind, much less LM. Just trying to help TD's stay away from problems and trouble and devlop a conservation minded TD train of thought if we or whomever is gonna profess or say you have a catch and release tournament.
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Carl Wengenroth
National Conservation Director - International Federation of Black Bass Anglers
 The Anglers Lodge/Tackle Shop
8969 Hwy. 90 West
Del Rio, Texas 78840
(830)775-1586 Lodge
(830)775-1763 Tackle

(830)719-9907 cell
Carl Wengenroth
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« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2010, 05:46:12 pm »
And as a side note, if you don't sign a wildlife resource document giving those fish to the tournament organization, then technically you could be held responsible for your fish even after you leave and your TD is taking care of release or what ever. You TD's need to really think about this as well. If you don't have that signed wildlife resource document on hand from every angler , then you could also be technically breaking the law by having too many in possession. Sticky situation I must confess, but if a game warden wants too, your busted unless that document is signed and present at the weigh-in site until release is accomplished and until you take care of the dead one's cleaning them etc. . Is no different a situation than me giving you a deer or dove etc. etc. You don't have that document and are over the limit, it's ticket time and the resource gets confiscated and if you have a permit system like here at Amistad, they can yank it and you never have a tourney here again. Just some food for thought to help folks stay out of trouble. Would a game warden do it ? Just depends on the officer. I wouldn't want to bet money on it. Yes, we have done it the other way for years. But we have seen it happen here and our tournaments have also been checked for it. Usually they just advise you next time you need it. But sometimes it is not that nice.
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Carl Wengenroth
National Conservation Director - International Federation of Black Bass Anglers
 The Anglers Lodge/Tackle Shop
8969 Hwy. 90 West
Del Rio, Texas 78840
(830)775-1586 Lodge
(830)775-1763 Tackle

(830)719-9907 cell
David Rush
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« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2010, 09:38:17 pm »
I realize it's the law Carl. I'm just saying there are some that break the law and get away with it. I just thought it would hold them more accountable.   
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Mark Jones
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« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2010, 10:01:17 pm »
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdforms/media/pwd_980_l2000_wildlife_resource_document.pdf
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Carl Wengenroth
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« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2010, 04:39:24 am »
I wish it could be policed more too David. Agreed.
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Carl Wengenroth
National Conservation Director - International Federation of Black Bass Anglers
 The Anglers Lodge/Tackle Shop
8969 Hwy. 90 West
Del Rio, Texas 78840
(830)775-1586 Lodge
(830)775-1763 Tackle

(830)719-9907 cell
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